Kerry McDonald on Unschooling and Homeschooling

I had a chance to talk with Kerry McDonald about her book, Unschooled: Raising Curious, Well-Educated Children Outside the Conventional Classroom (https://amzn.to/3w3hIcN).

Listen on YouTube below, subscribe to the podcast, or listen to the audio file below.

Kerry McDonald on Homeschooling and Unschooling
Full Interview with Kerry

Here is one of the highlights:

Kerry McDonald first learns about homeschooling and unschooling

Chapters:
00:00:00 Kerry McDonald https://fee.org/kerry
00:04:30 Public school vs Homeschool
00:06:20 Harvard
00:10:50 FEE https://fee.org/
00:11:30 Cato https://www.cato.org/
00:12:10 Educational Freedom in America
00:14:15 Compulsory schooling laws
00:16:10 Unschooling
00:19:00 Adult learning vs child learning
00:20:40 Creativity, curiosity, entrepreneurship
00:23:30 Unschooling at Kerry’s home
00:25:18 Creating vs consuming
00:27:40 Gender differences
00:29:14 Kids are expected to read earlier and earlier
00:30:27 Individuality in education
00:31:15 Thomas Edison
00:32:35 Study on adults who were unschooled
00:33:25 Left vs Right in homeschooling

Automated Transcript

Hi, everyone and welcome to the podcast. Today, I’m talking with Kerry McDonald. Kerry McDonald is an adjunct scholar at the Kato Institute, Center for Educational Freedom and a senior education fellow at the Foundation for Economic Education. She’s the author of Unschooled Raising Curious Well Educated Children Outside of the Conventional Classroom. Kerry, thanks for joining me on the call today. I’m glad to be with you Aaron.00:00:26

Thanks for having me.00:00:28

Yeah, Carrie. I’ve I wanted to get you on the call because I’ve been listening to your book on Audible this week and it was so fascinating. So much of the history of schooling in our country and compulsory school schooling and alternatives to traditional schooling. There’s so many options out there that people often times don’t even know about but I’m curious. What got you interested in this thing called unschooling in the first place or actually education in the first place.00:00:56

Yeah. Idea of pedagogy. Yeah. So, I was an economics major as an undergraduate in the late 1990s but through the lens of economics became interested in education and education policy in particular seeing sort of the lack of choices in the education sector compared to other markets and realizing that that was primarily due to the government schooling monopoly in education for the most part with families sort of being assigned to compulsory district schools and most families not having another option beyond that so I began to take more education classes as an undergraduate and my senior year, I was doing an independent research project on homeschooling where I had the opportunity to shadow homeschooling family that live nearby to my campus and it was just completely you know, captivating for me that I was able to see an entirely different way of learning.00:01:57

I had gone through K to 12 public schools that was sort of what I expected education to look like and then seeing this homeschooling family really allowing their children’s interests to drive learning and seeing the kind of authentic socialization in their community as opposed to sort of the age segregated socialization that we find in schools. All of that I just found completely mesmerizing and really got me increasingly interested in alternative education, more interested in education choice.00:02:32

This was the 19nineties. So, homeschooling had just become legally recognized in the US a few years prior by the mid-1990s and was still really kind of a tiny marginal education option. The US Department of Education first began tracking homeschoolers in the late 1990s and they counted 850, 000 at the time. Of course, now we’re at more than 5 million accelerated by the pandemic response. So, it was really kind of a new new in terms of its mainstream appeal in the late 19nineties.00:03:08

Of course, the modern homeschooling movement began in the late 60s and early 1970s but over the past couple of decades, it’s really exploded and so from that time, shadowing that homeschooling family in college and also that same time doing some student teaching practicum work in a local public elementary school and really for the first time being able to see the contrast in these different types of learning environments up close got me much more interested in education.00:03:35

So, I went to graduate school and education policy at Harvard, became much more involved in the school choice movement and looking at ways to encourage the expansion of education options for families including through policy and legislation but also through education entrepreneurship and family empowerment and so then, you know, a decade later, when I had my own children and and was and they were young and I was thinking about education options for them, you know, homeschooling just made sense for my husband and I and we just realized that we were you know here we live in Cambridge Massachusetts and have so many resources available to the kids around us in terms of museums and libraries and extracurricular events and historic sites that really to send them to school would sort of narrow their learning and we wanted to continue to provide that kind of expansive immersive learning environment for them oh yeah there’s so much to impact there and there’s I I I love everything that you said about that in that last part about creating a more expansive environment you know my my daughter to go to public school and and we were really pushing home homeschool but we thought well she really wants to do this but I just felt so sad because I knew that her the way that schooling it is set up that her everything that she was learning would be such a constrained vision of what a broader education could be if she’s decided to stay homeschooled and fortunately after the first week she decided I think I’ll I’ll come home and be homeschooled but But At least she tested the waters there so.00:05:12

Yeah. Given the given her a little bit of an option.00:05:16

But you you mentioned there that you had this opportunity to do I guess an intensive study of a homeschooling family. That seems very unusual. How did that come about in your program? Yeah I was doing an independent research project and an education seminar. Um we could pick any topic we wanted and I was curious in this thing called homeschooling and you know what was it what did it look like and I happened to have a classmate who had family members who live nearby to campus and so she was able to connect me with them and and that led to being able to you know spend that semester kind of shadowing them and learning about how their children learn outside of school and then again seeing the contrast between that way of learning and the conventionally school children in the local district school.00:06:08

Okay and then you said that you went on to Harvard. Now, I know I’ve read Thomas Soul’s autobiography and he says a lot of negative things about Harvard. What was that like being at one of the top elite schools in the world? Well, you know, at the time, school choice was really just coming on the scene. Um this was I graduated from graduate school in 2001 and so at the time, if you were interested in awe at all in kind of alternative education or educational freedom or different models, then, charter schools were kind of where you were focusing because was really the only kind of mainstream option that was gaining popularity in terms of providing more choices for families.00:06:55

So I began working with some think tanks and looking at the emerging charter school movement and then it’s been wonderful to see over the past couple of decades just the expansion of school choice much beyond charter schools although there’s still a lot of room for improvement there in terms of lifting charter school caps in very various states and you know providing families that want that option to choose publicly funded but privately run school that’s not tied to their zip code.00:07:22

I think a lot of families you know really gravitating towards that. We’re seeing even increased interest in charter schools over the past couple of years with the pandemic response. So it just shows that families really want and demand education choice just like they demand and want choice in all other areas of their lives and of course we have so much more choice and much more abundance so so many more options related to our preferences in every other area of our lives and yet education continues to be for the most part kind of this one size fits all heavily government dominated model so the more we can kind of break that down and provide more choices for families the better yeah yeah I was I was curious though about your experience at Harvard what was that like going to Harvard at at one of the most elite schools in the world well I would say that it’s also the place where I sort of began my exposure to libertarianism so you know sort of a political as you know growing up and even an undergrad you know didn’t give much thought to to politics or political theory of course as an economist or trained as an economist as an undergrad you know I began to certainly value free markets and realize the unintended consequences of government involvement in the market so that was sort of maybe was sort of the academic seeds but then when I went to Harvard it became crystallized for me.00:08:49

I remember I was in one graduate school class where we had to meet up in small groups to talk about a policy solution to a particular public policy issue and we had say 20 minutes in the small group to come up with our policy solution and so started off in the group and somebody said, well, let’s just raise taxes and then somebody else well let’s just raise taxes somebody else said let’s just raise taxes and so you know two and a/ 2 minutes into what would be the 20-minute discussion it seemed like that we had our solution and then of course it got to me and I said you know I don’t think raising taxes is the right solution I think we should look at some other options to this particular policy issue and that was really I think a crystallizing moment for me as I began to say you know what what is sort of a political philosophy around lower taxes free markets limited role of government, individual freedom, and choice and of course that’s what how I found my way to Libertarianism.00:09:47

Okay.00:09:48

Interesting. So, Harvard a lot of people think of as sort of a liberal bastion of contemporary thought but it’s it actually led you the opposite direction to Libertarianism. So, that’s that’s pretty interesting.00:10:03

What about tell me a little bit what oh go ahead. Were you going to say something? No, I was just going to say I think that’s true. I think you know, there I think then and and continues to be now sort of a monoculture in terms of thought and particularly around education policy and and for me, that was very eye opening because I said, you know, this doesn’t seem right. We need to have, you know, a diverse set of opinions and solutions to look at these really complex public policy issues. So, it was certainly helpful for me to be able to say, you know, that’s not the kind of approach that I’m taking to education policy and realizing that there were other options there.00:10:46

Yeah, yeah. Tell me a little bit about what it’s like being a scholar at the Cato Institute and education fellow at Fee which is the Foundation for Economic Education. What does that mean? What what do you do on a daily basis? Yeah. So, my primary work is as a senior fellow at the Foundation for Economic Education, Fee. org. Fee is the country’s oldest Libertarian Think Tank.00:11:11

It was founded in 1946 by Leonard Reed. Uh just celebrated our fifth year anniversary and so I do a lot of writing and speaking various conferences and engagements through fee. I just launched a brand-new podcast called The Liberated Podcast that really looks at education-related issues using the principles of a free society or through the lens of a free society including individual liberty, limited government, free markets, entrepreneurship, and so on.00:11:40

Um so, you know, a great a great spot for me and then with Kato, you know, similar I do various you know policy briefs for them. I did one about why school choice is good for homeschoolers and really looking at how expanding school choice can help everybody including homeschoolers who may not initially sort of think that there’s anything in it for them and just you know being able to kind of push the conversation on some of these issues.00:12:05

Yeah yeah interesting. So I’ve always thought of education as being very similar in a way to religion. It’s it’s very it can be very personal. It’s it’s helping shape the way you look at the world. The way you live your life. And yet in the that was mostly founded on religious freedom America it we have some the very strong laws around education such as compulsory schooling for the crime of turning six years old you gotta be put in a cage for the next what 12 years in for eight hours a day how do you think that came about yeah you know I would also say that the country was founded on educational freedom as well I mean we think about the early days of the colonies and I talk about this in the Unschooled book the pilgrims of course settled in Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1620 and just a couple of decades later in the 1640s they passed the colonies first compulsory education laws that for the first time recognized a state interest in educated citizenry and compelled cities and towns of a certain size to either hire a teacher or open and operate a grammar school so they recognized the need to provide kind of these public options public education options to families but the compulsion was on the various municipalities to provide these education resources to any families that wanted them.00:13:31

The compulsion was not on families to take advantage of these education options and in fact many didn’t. The kind of default in these early colonial days was that the family was the center of a child’s education. Um the parents would be the ones to determine how their children would be educated and that they would use all kinds of various resources. They would use tutors or they would use what were known Dame schools where your neighbor would have a little kindergarten in the you know their kitchen to kind of teach young children their ABCs or they would use apprenticeship programs that were of course widespread in the colonial and revolutionary era and that all changed in 1852 when Massachusetts again leading the way in compulsion passed the country’s first compulsory education a compulsory schooling laws which for the first time mandated school attendance under a legal threat of force.00:14:28

Now, parents were compelled to send their children to these district schools and I go through in the book a lot of the kind of history of how that came to be and a lot of it was really embedded in anti-immigrant sentiment. There was influx of Irish Catholic immigrants in particular into the Boston area in the early to mid 19th century. The population of Boston doubled between 1820 and 1840 and there was tremendous amount of cultural change.00:14:57

Lot of these immigrants were Irish Catholic immigrants that challenged the dominant Anglo Saxon Protestant culture and ethos of the time and so creating these now compulsory public schools which were purportedly secular but had Protestant teachers and texts were seen as a way to sort of assimilate these Irish Catholic immigrants and it’s interesting to note and I talk about this in the book as that a lot of Irish Irish Catholic families rebelled and created their own parallel system of parochial schools that really flourished in the late 19th century.00:15:34

Um and so you know I think what we’re seeing now is just more and more families recognizing that they that there is today a mismatch between what they want for their children’s education and what is currently provided in district schools. I think the coronavirus response particularly in the spring of twenty twenty.00:15:53

shed a lot of light for families as they saw perhaps for the first time up close through Zoom school what their kids were actually doing in those classrooms and realized that they needed and wanted to take back control of their children’s education from government officials and school local school officials and find some other options.00:16:13

Yeah yeah. I feel like there’s a huge mental shift that has to take place and like when people first hear about the idea of homeschooling they think at least from what people I’ve encountered. Oh that’s kind of weird. I don’t why would you do that? Of course the pandemic has helped with that. But then there’s this further idea of unschooling where it’s giving your kid total or at least a lot more responsibility towards self-directed education.00:16:39

That that word unschooling. Why do you think that What do you think about that word? I don’t personally like it that much. I prefer self-directed learning but why did you choose that word for the title of your book? Yeah. So, I define Unschooling in the book as disentangling education from schooling and recognizing that even as an approach to homeschooling, you know, you don’t necessarily need to replicate school at home and of course, this is what a lot of families kind of associated homeschooling with back in the spring of twenty twenty.00:17:12

Oh, we’re just going to, you know, kind of import the school curriculum or these kinds of benchmarks and expectations that we find in a conventional classroom. We’ll import that into our home and that’s homeschooling and certainly that’s one approach but I would argue that we don’t need to be tied to that model of schooling which again is sort of has these roots in 19th century industrial model of education that instead we can think about self-directed education allowing a child’s interest and passions to drive their learning and then surround them with the tremendous resources of our communities both digital resources and real life resources in our communities, the mentors, the classes, the enrichment opportunities around us as well as just again this tremendous abundance of tools and resources in the online world many of which are free or low cost so in some ways just thinking about education beyond schooling it makes sense for the 21st century when we do have access to so many more resources than we did you know you think about when kids used to go to school it was because that was where the teachers were that was where the textbooks were and that was where the knowledge was was based.00:18:24

Now, of course, we have access to that all around us and so kind of having kids be forced to go to school five days a week, 180 days a year in this sort of confined age-segregated classroom I think is is is just more and more incompatible with the needs and realities of the 21st century and I think more families are realizing that. You know, one thing of certainly the pandemic response did was uproot our sense of work and a lot of employers and employees are embracing telework and working from home and having more freedom and flexibility in our work schedules and that doesn’t seem to be going away and I think more families are realizing gee you know if I’m not tied to an office building five days a week and tied to this kind of conventional notion of work then maybe my children don’t need to be tied to a conventional approach to education either.00:19:17

Yeah, that’s that’s a good insight. I hadn’t thought of it that way before. You know, I still do find it hard to understand why some people find it so strange that to homeschool or unschool your kids because as an adult, that’s the way we learn all the time. When I’m interested in something, I read books about it. I’ll go on Amazon. I’ll go on YouTube. Uh if I need to fix something around the house.00:19:41

Um it’s like this this sort of just in time learning where you’re you’re learning what you need to and then you use that. You move on to the next thing. Uh some things I go deep on some things are just surface level but we’re doing that all the time as adults but for students and kids we seem to think that oh now they need to have this they need to learn a little bit of everything just in case and that is just that style of learning we never do that or rarely do we do that as we get older and as adults but for some reason it is horrible way of learning seems to persist what are your thoughts on why that yeah I know I think that’s right you know I think but I also think more and more families are realizing that children learn in much the same way that adults learn and that we do have all of these incredible resources around us so why not grant the freedom and flexibility to our children in their learning as we you know allow ourselves and so I think we’re we’re seeing that shift I also think and I talk about this a bit in Unschooled as well that you know the realities of the 21st century are such that we increasingly are competing with robots and artificial intelligence and so when we think about the the key differentiators between humans and machines the key differentiators between human intelligence and artificial intelligence it’s things like creativity curiosity and entrepreneurial spirit a desire for exploration and discovery and those are often the qualities these these these really important critical human qualities are eroded through a top-down system of conventional schooling.00:21:23

You know, you think about when a child enters a classroom in the early days of their schooling experience. All of that kind of natural exuberance for learning that young children all exhibit slowly sort of fades and it’s not because kids kind of grow out of that exuberance for learning. It’s that this conventional system of schooling stifles those qualities, those human qualities of creativity and curiosity and discovery and so the key really is to just not stifle those human qualities and to encourage creativity over conformity and originality over obedience to really enable us to meet the challenges of the 21st century.00:22:07

Yeah. Do you see yourself as a entrepreneur doing the roles that you do? I know you also write for Forbes which is an entrepreneurial website but how do you. Yeah, you know, I’m a. Are you an entrepreneur? Absolutely. You know, I’m an independent contractor for the Think Tanks that I work with and one of the kind of best parts of my job is being able to identify and write about and spotlight and cultivate education entrepreneurs. I really am inspired by these people who are many cases are educators or people who’ve been, for example, public school teachers are leaving the classroom to create micro schools or tutoring programs or platforms that encourage different ways of of teaching and learning and so that is such a great rewarding thing for me.00:23:05

Do you try to inculcate that in your kids as well? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean I think you know we think about what makes this country great. It really is that entrepreneurial spirit and that zest for innovation and invention that’s available to us here and so the more that we can encourage our children to think originally and creatively and come up with solutions to various problems I think we’ll all be better off.00:23:34

Yeah. Yeah. Can you give us a little bit of an idea of what a unschooling day is like in your family? Yeah. So, I will say my oldest is fifth is 15 now. She is enrolled in a dual enrollment high school college program through Arizona State University that I highly recommend. It’s called ASU Prep Digital and so she this was something she wanted to do. She’s very passionate about academics and excelling in particular math and science are kind of her key interest areas and so this kind of academic approach was really important for her and so we were able to find this incredible program that she absolutely loves and that’s one of the things that I that I make that’s a a point that I make in the Unschooled book is that unschooling doesn’t mean that you’re not using curriculum.00:24:27

It doesn’t mean that you’re not following sort of this academic timeline. It just means that it’s something that that is driven by the child with the support and facilitation of adults and so, you know, my kids generally do take your academic classes but they’re things that they’re particularly interested in and then they’re able to spend a lot of their time in other areas pursuing their other passions my 13-year-old son is a big skateboarder so he spends a lot of his time skateboarding my 11-year-old daughter is passionate about a lot of things and in particular she’s the musician in our household so she plays several instruments and this is something that she you know really wanted to develop a passion that that she had and then my little guy my eight year old is a in everything but I would say he is our kind of master chess player, cribgage player, board game guy.00:25:19

Nice one thing that I’ve noticed with my kids is that I I try to encourage them to create and to not just consume as you know try to foster this idea of being a creator and putting things out there rather than just because some of sometimes I think the best way to learn is to teach others so for example if my kids get a new toy I’ll try to encourage them hey let’s put a review of it on your YouTube channel and you can talk about the toy to talk about the different aspects of it then they’re learning a little bit of marketing a little bit of video production things like that but a lot of times they’ll just sit there and they’ll just want to watch YouTube videos of other kids opening their toys or something like that.00:26:00

How you find a balance between creating versus just allowing your kids or creating and pushing your kids versus allowing them to kind of follow their natural way of learning.00:26:11

Yeah, you know, I just think it comes sort of organically through family dynamics. You know, I mean parents have expectations for their children and they need to kind of stay true to that. You know, one of the things I say very strongly in the Unschooled book is that parents have the ultimate responsibility to make sure that their children are highly educated that their children are highly literate enumerate and I would say that that goes that that goes for children who are homeschooled as well as children who are in schools that it’s ultimately up to the parents to make sure that their children are in the best educational environment possible and that they’re learning everything that they need to be learning and that they’re living up to their full potential.00:26:49

I think that’s the parents’ responsibility not the schools or not the the states and so you know it it is this vow you’re right between making sure that children are learning the academics they need but also pursuing their passions and I think you know what a lot of unschoolers and homeschoolers would say is that when you allow learning to be more emergent and immersive that happens naturally you know like I play I was just before I got on the call with you today I was playing scrabble with my eight year old which of course is you know filled with literacy and calculations and and all of that so I think some of it is just you know, cultivating those family relationships, pursuing the child’s interest, and realizing how much learning comes from that.00:27:36

Have you noticed the difference between your your boys and your girls? I I forgot how did you you said you had three kids? I have four. Yeah. They’re two boys and two girls. Yup. Have you have you noticed the difference between the boys and girls or has it just been in individual for each kid? Yeah, I think it’s been individual. I don’t I don’t see it kind of breaking down by gender. Um I think it’s definitely just individual interests and wonderful seeing their unique personalities and the different ways they learn and the different you know, tools and resources that they gravitate to.00:28:10

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The I guess the reason I ask is because my daughter learned to read fairly early on but my son, he’s turning five now. He’s not really interested in letters and numbers that much but he isn’t very interested in helping me build things or fix things around the house and I that and that kind of mimics what I experienced growing up as well.00:28:34

I I was more actually interested in doing things and I just I was curious if if you found a similarity amongst the genders but probably each kid is. Yeah I mean I think it I think it could be. Yeah I don’t know that it breaks down in my little sample size that way but they all read it different at different ages.00:28:52

Uh in my book I cite research that shows that kind of the average age for students learning outside of a conventional classroom to gain proficiency in reading meaning they could read almost anything is eight and a half. Uh and of course what we find in the US today is that more and more we are in American schools forcing children to learn to read at ever younger ages.00:29:18

Uh in fact nowadays expecting kindergartners. So these five year olds to read and and increasingly we’re finding that students that are not reading at that young age are either labeled as reading delayed or increasingly labeled with ADHD because of their inability to sit still and do academic work in kindergarten and it’s not the kids that have changed, it’s the benchmarks that have changed and the academic expectations and I think that’s the real tragedy is that we need to allow for children to develop on their own individual timelines to recognize that some kids will read at four and 4 or five and some kids might not read until they’re eight or nine and we need to provide for that kind of flexibility the same way we provide for that flexibility in other areas of child development.00:30:04

You know, if not every child was walking by the time they’re 12 months old, we wouldn’t say they were walking delayed we would acknowledge that there is the span of time and that it kind of operates on a bell curve of when children learn to walk and when and when children learn to read and I think providing more of that freedom and flexibility in educational settings is critical and certainly homeschoolers have been doing that for a long time yeah yeah I think that’s one of the what you mentioned there is that individuality and I I read a lot of books or autobiography is about entrepreneurs and great thinkers and a lot of times there there fit the mold and I fear that’s my fear about public education is sort of a one-size-fits-all.00:30:48

It’s like if you’re a little bit outside of the norm or on either end of the tail of the bell curve, you you you could get labeled, you can get ignored, and you can get pushed in a direction that’s not really optimized for you but have you found that amongst people like CEOs or entrepreneurs or thinkers? I think you had a story about Thomas Edison about correct me if I’m wrong but I think his mom started homeschooling him because he was a little bit outside the norm but have you found that as well? Yeah, I I talk in the book about Thomas Edison who went to the school, went to school for the first time when he was 8 years old.00:31:23

This was kind of mid 19th century and he was he only lasted a couple of weeks because his teacher called him adult which means kind of fuzzy in the mind not a clear thinker and his mom who was a teacher really pushed back against the the Thomas’ teacher but didn’t make any headway so she pulled him out and homeschooled him he was reading you know great literature by the time he was a tween he was creating a makeshift lab in his basement and you know really kind of developed those skills that ultimately led to him being an inventor and in fact I talk about one of his chemists in a biography of Thomas Edison who worked in his famous lab in New Jersey and he said that Uh if Thomas Edison had gone to school, he wouldn’t have had the audacity to create such impossible things.00:32:19

So, just this be ability to look beyond kind of convention and imagine different possibilities and different solutions as opposed to kind of the standardized way in which we learn in school. I think is so critical. One of the pieces of research that I cite in the Unschooled Book is research on the outcomes of grown unschoolers. So, The person who wrote The Forward to My Unschoolbook is Doctor Peter Gray who’s a psychology professor at Boston College and big proponent of self-directed learning and he and his colleague Gina Reilly did a survey of Grown Unschoolers and they found that more than half of these grown Unschoolers were working as entrepreneurs in adulthood and many of them were were working in fields related to interests that they began cultivating in childhood or adolescence.00:33:13

Uh so really no surprise there I think that this again this creativity, curiosity, ability to think about things in a different way would lead to entrepreneurship in later in life.00:33:26

Yeah. Part of what I liked about your book is how you incorporate quotes and books from both the left and the right. So you had quotes in there from Nom Chomsky and you had quotes from the other side as well and books and resources. Uh it seem to me that the the old left like the 660s like hippie they were they would be more favorable towards this type of schooling but now it seems like the left is more aligned with us the status model the one size fits all do you still see the this is there’s a that there’s a distinction between left and right as it relates to homeschooling well it’s one of the reasons why I trace the origins of unschooling and self-directed education back to ideas of the enlightenment and of John Locke who was even in the late 17th century what we would think of as a proponent today of gentle parenting and natural learning and of course you know kind of formed the foundation of our liberal values of non coercion and of self determination and tolerance for difference and so I think those are classical liberal values that we see in the history of unschool and of course in other areas as well and that we just need to remember today that you know this is about choice over force consent over coercion you know one of my favorite quotes from John Locke is it is one thing to persuade another to command one thing to push with penalties another with argument something I think I just botched that a little bit but it’s something along those lines and you know I think it’s even more today.00:35:13

We have to think about freedom over force and and certainly we’ve seen that in the evolution of homeschooling and unschooling as well.00:35:24

Well, Kerry, I really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to come on the call with me and talk about your book and these ideas. Alright, is there anything that we’ve we have or haven’t covered today that you’d like to add before we end the call? No, it’s been great talking with you Aaron. I would just say that to your listeners, they can find me at the Foundation for Economic Education@Feed. org slash Kerry K E R R Y. Uh there you can see links to my articles. Um find my new podcast to sign up for my weekly newsletter and connect with me in social media and over Email.00:36:01

Great. Thanks so much for coming on the call today, Kerry.00:36:04

Thanks, Aaron.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.